FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   PreferencesPreferences   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zapmeister
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the whole provisional rating issue would go way if they were kept secret from the users. If we were not even given a rating (that we know about) until we've played 15 games, we could play against anyone in blissful ignorance of the odd-looking behaviour of our provisional ratings.
Back to top
MinjaOffline
Vip
Vip
Avatar

Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Total posts: 8
Location: Belgrade
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Neth_antilles
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 13:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for moderator's count! I don't like a provisional system ratings, too, and I find a lot of Alice's and Zapmeister's complaints correct! And I know what I talking about, because I'm experienced chess-player, and have a lot of experience with various ELO-systems! You should NEVER punish anybody for win the game! Otherwise, like Zapmaister pointed out, people would avoid lower rated-players, AND BEGINNERS for their poor numbers (and some of beginners could be strong in this game)...
For example: I start my first game with 1500 rating (and I'm 2200+ ELO player!), and some "poor soul" with 1900 accept my invitation! He make a pretty good job by win over me, but he loose couple of points, because he win actually a stronger player then himself!! That's look strange! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile 
wccanard
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 15:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have something to say to Bram and something to say to Alice.

Bram said:

"Anyway, the provisional system is not something we came up with, it is very normal system used by almost every rating system based on ELO-ratings. "

But I think that this is *not* true. The last time that the rating system was carefully and clearly analysed on this site, it became clear that in fact it had been slightly tweaked and changed by the admins, and foul_ole_ron pointed out some serious disadvantages with the actual formula (I will mention one below). So bram, even though I love this site, I think that you **cannot** juse say "other people use the exact same formula as us" without giving some concrete examples [other than jijbent]. There are little "fudge factors" which were changed and these, in part, cause weird problems for people who either win most of their games, or lose most of their games, when they are provisional. For example, Alice Smile

Alice: you should be grateful for the site as it stands---after all you're playing on a site and it will have taken months to write the code, and it takes bram and others a lot of time to administer the site, and people complain about a lot of things but (a) some things are hard to change and (b) it would be even unfair to change them---the same rules apply to all of us, and we all went down when winning as provisionals so why shouldn't you? If you were being treated _differently_ then you could complain Smile

Let me say two more things. (1) There was a misunderstanding above---once your rating is not provisional, it should *never* go down when you win. And (2) **BEWARE**. If you win your first 14 games here, then be careful with your 15th game. Foul_ole_ron noticed that if you win 14 games then it is *always* better to lose the 15th game. So for your 15th game, play someone rated as high as you can find, and then resign immediately. After that your rating isn't provisional any more, so then try to win everything. You are only complaining about the provisional ratings---believe me, the standard ratings, once you have played 15 games, are much much more sensible [they go in the right direction, for example!]

wc
Back to top
alice
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 16:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

wccanard wrote:
I have something to say to Bram and something to say to Alice.
Alice: you should be grateful for the site as it stands---after all you're playing on a site and it will have taken months to write the code, and it takes bram and others a lot of time to administer the site, and people complain about a lot of things but (a) some things are hard to change and (b) it would be even unfair to change them---the same rules apply to all of us, and we all went down when winning as provisionals so why shouldn't you? If you were being treated _differently_ then you could complain Smile


Hello wccanard,

Thank you for post who serve mediating purpose.
My criticism is far, far away from not being grateful for such places where people could enjoy games - but that two matters (my gratefulness and poor oppinion about rating system) are completely different things..
I don't think that I should keep my opinion for myself and take things as they are if I'm puzzled with something, just to show that I appreciate what other people do.
Please, don't continue in this fashion, because it twisting my stand when ratings are in matter and putting toughts behind my word that are not there.
Anyhow I didn't complain at treatment other then rating treatment. No one forbid my access to site and nothing unpleasant happened to me due to my posts regard ratings.

As well as I am pleased for having site like this, people who made it should be pleased that players are coming here to play. So, I believe that, thou their work is greater, our involvment in this site should arouse some gratefulness from their part too.
They give us opportunity to play, we justify purpose of the site.

wccanard wrote:

Let me say two more things. (1) There was a misunderstanding above---once your rating is not provisional, it should *never* go down when you win. And (2) **BEWARE**. If you win your first 14 games here, then be careful with your 15th game. Foul_ole_ron noticed that if you win 14 games then it is *always* better to lose the 15th game. So for your 15th game, play someone rated as high as you can find, and then resign immediately. After that your rating isn't provisional any more, so then try to win everything. You are only complaining about the provisional ratings---believe me, the standard ratings, once you have played 15 games, are much much more sensible [they go in the right direction, for example!]
wc


Thanks for the tipp. Very Happy
If I remember that when come to fifteenth game I'll resign immidiatelly! Laughing
Back to top
Holbewoner
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 16:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

alice wrote:

Thanks for the tipp. Very Happy
If I remember that when come to fifteenth game I'll resign immidiatelly! Laughing


Only, when you win your first 14 games! If you lose or even draw one game then winning in the 15th game is better.
Back to top
wccanard
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 16:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well good luck, it can be hard to win 14 games in a row Smile

You say you are "puzzled" by the provisional rating system. I don't think the formula is perfect, but I am not "puzzled" by it because it is very clearly explained in another post somewhere on this site---I'm sure of it.

...

aah here it is.

http://forum.yourturnmyturn.com/viewtopic.php?t=161

Basically, the problem you have found is **when you are provisional** your rating is calculated as some kind of weighted average, depending on the players you played against and how well you got on against them. If you play someone rated much much lower than you, this pulls the average down, even if you win. But *only* when you are provisional.

Let me assure you:

(a) they won't change anything, even if you complain. People have complained before. At least we are all treated the same.

(b) Don't be scared to resign that 15th game. If they know that this happens, and they don't change it, then it's not cheating---they must _want_ you to play like that!
Did you notice the little [i] above the move list? Click on that to see what will happen if you win, lose or draw, so you can check what I say on your game 15 Smile Oh---it's even better to draw than to lose! The best thing to do is to win 14 and draw 1. Unfortunately some games can't end in a draw Smile

(c) If you don't want your rating to go down any more, then don't ever play against people rated much much lower than you, until you have played 15 games. Believe me---the formula is _much_ more sensible after you have played 15 games, and it won't be long Smile

wc
Back to top
alice
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 17:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holbewoner wrote:
alice wrote:

Thanks for the tipp. Very Happy
If I remember that when come to fifteenth game I'll resign immidiatelly! Laughing


Only, when you win your first 14 games! If you lose or even draw one game then winning in the 15th game is better.


Yes, yes of course. Very Happy
Let me rephrase that:
If I remember that when come to fifteenth game, and should I won first fourteen I'll resign immediately! (or better - draw! as wccanard suggested!) Smile
Back to top
alice
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 18:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

wccanard wrote:
Well good luck, it can be hard to win 14 games in a row Smile

You say you are "puzzled" by the provisional rating system. I don't think the formula is perfect, but I am not "puzzled" by it because it is very clearly explained in another post somewhere on this site---I'm sure of it.
...
aah here it is.

http://forum.yourturnmyturn.com/viewtopic.php?t=161

Basically, the problem you have found is **when you are provisional** your rating is calculated as some kind of weighted average, depending on the players you played against and how well you got on against them. If you play someone rated much much lower than you, this pulls the average down, even if you win. But *only* when you are provisional.

Let me assure you:

(a) they won't change anything, even if you complain. People have complained before. At least we are all treated the same.

(b) Don't be scared to resign that 15th game. If they know that this happens, and they don't change it, then it's not cheating---they must _want_ you to play like that!
Did you notice the little [i] above the move list? Click on that to see what will happen if you win, lose or draw, so you can check what I say on your game 15 Smile Oh---it's even better to draw than to lose! The best thing to do is to win 14 and draw 1. Unfortunately some games can't end in a draw Smile

(c) If you don't want your rating to go down any more, then don't ever play against people rated much much lower than you, until you have played 15 games. Believe me---the formula is _much_ more sensible after you have played 15 games, and it won't be long Smile
wc


I've corrected myself regarding those 14 wins Smile
Thing is, when you first visit a gaming site you want to play games and not to read all about ratings and stuff. Those fall in place as they come along. When I saw that it need 15 games to go beyond provisional ratings I didn't understand that this provisional calculation is so untrustworthy. I've accepted first game from player with high rating posted in waiting room and rest of games I've posted there without taking care of opponent rating. I figured that it need 15 games, and that points will follow RESULTS of the game.

No, we are not treated evenly. The provisional rank obviously depends ON LUCK too!
For instance it depends on time of the game (if you started game with lower rank and win the low rated player AFTER you gain more points from winning other games with better ranked player - you'll lose points even if you were even ranked at the beginning.

Owners of the site may not change anything that's their discretion - but to complain about this situation - that's mine discretion and I'm using it.

Thank you for finding that link for me. I'll take a look at that at some time.
Back to top
alice
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 19:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes and I've checked that (i) as you've suggested.
I'm about to loose points again. Brick wall
Game started at 2nd of July, when my ratings were low and now just two moves left for me to loose points.
Shall I resign?!? Laughing
Back to top
wccanard
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 21:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

No! Don't resign Very Happy If you resign you'll lose even more Very Happy Only resign game 15, and only resign it if you won the first 14 Very Happy
Back to top
CydC
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! That makes sense!

I'm not a tournament player nor interested in ratings so I am wondering if there is some way to request an UNRATED game in the waiting room? Or perhaps there is an "unrated game" waiting room?
Back to top
bramOffline
Superadmin
Superadmin
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Total posts: 1068
Gender: Unknown
Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

CydC wrote:
Ah! That makes sense!

I'm not a tournament player nor interested in ratings so I am wondering if there is some way to request an UNRATED game in the waiting room? Or perhaps there is an "unrated game" waiting room?


No, unrated is not possible in the waiting room.
Back to top
View user's profile 
Challenger
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 13:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

bram wrote:


I do not agree with you, because a few people do not agree it is not most of the users. And the reason why people complain about the provisional system is because they do not understand it.

Anyway, the provisional system is not something we came up with, it is very normal system used by almost every rating system based on ELO-ratings.



In ELO it is impossible to get a lower rating after you have won a game (S(A)=1). This is because E(A) is always smaller than 1, but bigger than 0. For that reason k x (S(A)-E(A)) is always positive. You use a pseudo-ELO-system.

See: https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/09a11111b433582eccbb22c740486264549d1129
Back to top
bramOffline
Superadmin
Superadmin
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Total posts: 1068
Gender: Unknown
Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

No we do not use a pseudo system! We only use a pseudo system the first 15 games you play otherwise you would have a provisional rating for much longer then 15 games.
Back to top
View user's profile 
Challenger
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 15:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

bram wrote:
No we do not use a pseudo system! We only use a pseudo system the first 15 games you play otherwise you would have a provisional rating for much longer then 15 games.


In fact, you don't need a provisional rating system at all.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group